tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post979582249518999647..comments2024-03-28T11:52:35.171+00:00Comments on Woolgathering in North East England: Michael Sadgrove's Blog: Child Sexual Abuse - what does the church do about shame?Aquiloniushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-4086566410599907362018-03-28T10:31:02.021+01:002018-03-28T10:31:02.021+01:00Jonathan- thank you for having the courage and the...Jonathan- thank you for having the courage and the dignity to share your story with us. Your last sentence sums up the objective the church must set its face towards if the Holy Spirit is to flow and be seen to be flowing by those outside the church looking in. Healing can be slow, painful and transformative. We hear at this time of the church calendar that to journey through Holy Week can be life changing, and it can be. Similarly, the Church of England must embark on an uncomfortable journey to bring about restitution. However, the IICSA has demonstrated to me that the church cannot police itself; the only way to step forward on the long road to healing and change is to have an external and independent body deal with all safeguarding issues. Under the status quo, no amount of internal reporting will give either pastoral support or relief in knowing that evil will be uprooted. I have in the past witnessed awful behaviour in the institutional church. Your situation and the evidence from the IICSA have reminded me that the institutional church is not the only expression of the kingdom of God here on earth. Thank you again for sharing.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01343064403722007534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-17655151351213770962018-03-26T18:22:37.710+01:002018-03-26T18:22:37.710+01:00Go directly to the police. They will take you seri...Go directly to the police. They will take you seriously and treat you well.Andrew Sagehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14204553737616225135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-59008469714909086202018-03-26T16:24:40.007+01:002018-03-26T16:24:40.007+01:00The bishops speak to you and promise to help. Then...The bishops speak to you and promise to help. Then they go home and make phone calls to find out about you and they are told the lie that lets the bishop who originally hurt you sleep at night. So, the next time they speak to you they are very negative. In fact, both of my most recent bishops have been downright aggresive.<br /><br />I once drove over two hundred miles to see a bishop. I was completely honest with him. I told him my story and said that I was looking for a bishop who would support me as I was expected to support those in my care. Two months later he wrote to me to tell me that he was going to offer me a job until I mentioned the "care" thing, which made him decide that he would not invite me to his diocese because I "would bring too much baggage with me."<br /><br />The Church of England is a business nowadays run with a ruthlessness that would embarrass Lord Sugar.<br />MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-30818718679301597312018-03-26T15:15:55.482+01:002018-03-26T15:15:55.482+01:00I have been chewing over what I just read, and wha...I have been chewing over what I just read, and what I posted and I feel I need to expand on forgiving and remembering. Forgiveness is not something that can or should be demanded by a third party on behalf of the abuser from the victim. It should be/is something offered by the abused to the abuser, perhaps through gritted teeth, and needs to be either asked for, or received. Within the church it is usually used as a brush off, and always used too soon. It is not a licence to the abuser to continue, which has been said in the hearings. And from the point of view of the victim, it is not a condition of their being a "real Christian", that you have to accept continued abuse. You do not have to stay in relationship with your abuser. Of course, if your abuser is "the church", that presents a problem. I hope that's clear enough. I'm a little full at the moment. Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-88561099730334383132018-03-26T14:44:40.194+01:002018-03-26T14:44:40.194+01:00We forgive and remember. That's not an accusat...We forgive and remember. That's not an accusation. It's irrational to forget hurt, as foolish as forgetting that fire burns. If Michael has contacted someone, it is possible that you will now be heard. I have experienced punishment for showing the wounds the church inflicted, too. I am so sorry. Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-51697430736360788842018-03-25T22:40:01.325+01:002018-03-25T22:40:01.325+01:00The Church is crammed to the rafters with people s...The Church is crammed to the rafters with people saying things.MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-44726974906381417572018-03-25T22:38:53.397+01:002018-03-25T22:38:53.397+01:00This goes back to the late 1990s and it has been i...This goes back to the late 1990s and it has been investigated by the appropriate diocesan officer. They decided that it was just "grooming" and I am told that grooming was not illegal at that time. <br /><br />My point is that my life was ruined by the incident and rather than be there for me the bishops couldn't get rid of me fast enough. I cannot forgive and forget because I am constantly reminded of the institutional evil of the church I once loved by the phoney breast-beating in public by people I know from experience do not actually give a damn. <br />MadPriesthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15120376342802143188noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-21132028132678331292018-03-25T21:32:03.074+01:002018-03-25T21:32:03.074+01:00I'm deeply sorry to hear this Jonathan. Of co...I'm deeply sorry to hear this Jonathan. Of course I would normally encourage you to go straight to Bishop Paul and/or to the Durham DSA. It may be that you have done this already. Many of my friends have been on the wrong side of abuse in the church, and the degree of support from church authorities ranges from average to truly terrible. If it would help to have a phone or email conversation with a supportive stranger, let me know and I will send contact details. Andrewhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16467786433135677528noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-20285207417972629082018-03-25T19:55:48.608+01:002018-03-25T19:55:48.608+01:00Thank you for saying this, Michael Sadgrove. Thank you for saying this, Michael Sadgrove. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14606772444631739583noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-26592072640812604332018-03-25T18:53:29.729+01:002018-03-25T18:53:29.729+01:00I have contacted the Bishop of B&W. I hope Jon...I have contacted the Bishop of B&W. I hope Jonathan will read this and contact the bishop of the diocese concerned. Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-68344697713460091642018-03-25T18:32:06.711+01:002018-03-25T18:32:06.711+01:00Michael and Jonathan, can you draw attention to th...Michael and Jonathan, can you draw attention to this to Bishop of Bath&Wells and also to diocesan bishop and also to the DSA asap. This needs quick action to prevent possible harm. Jonathan, given your experience of inertia, cover-up and blanking by senior figures, you may feel understandably nervous and fearful about raising this. But you are doing the right thing. Young people will be at risk and if that priest has observed that he has got away with it - he may be continuing this very serious grooming activity. I'll leave comments about the need for exploration into why there was such failure despite your clear efforts to raise the alarm - you can imagine what I think. Priority is to make sure diocesan safeguarding act fast and report this to the police. Gilonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-65689073462684182062018-03-25T17:42:47.804+01:002018-03-25T17:42:47.804+01:00I suspect that the only real shame felt by those w...I suspect that the only real shame felt by those who covered up these offences is that of breaking the 11th Commandment. "Thou shalt not be found out". Corporate manslaughter is a crime for which people can be punished, corporate shame is not. As I have before, we need a law as in France where "failing to give aid to a person in danger" is an offence. At least one French Bishop has been hauled before a court to explain why he moved a paedophile priest on and did nothing else.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13723512466232752096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-73961105658687963532018-03-25T16:52:44.639+01:002018-03-25T16:52:44.639+01:00This applies also to the Catholic Church. Men in p...This applies also to the Catholic Church. Men in positions of power frequently bully and abuse those they perceive as inferior. We need to be not only observant but also willing to speak out, and those with the power to investigate should have the humility to accept what they are told and do their utmost to get to the truth. We all need to feel that collective shame for our blindness and cowardice and own it publically. We can start by assuming that the vulnerable are not liars.Ula Elliottnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-56905710418665532122018-03-25T15:00:07.949+01:002018-03-25T15:00:07.949+01:00As a new curate, I reported my vicar for taking a ...As a new curate, I reported my vicar for taking a teenage boy to a sauna and photographing him in the nude (the tip of an iceberg of grooming offences). The archdeacon involved (as there was no bishop at the time) covered the incident up. The whole episode (probably due to events in my own past) caused me to suffer a mental breakdown and the new bishop sacked me and evicted me from my home for suffering from depression. I have been excluded from the Church of England and all my requests to bishops (including Justin Welby when he was bishop of Durham) and others for help have been refused or ignored. No matter what they privately think a bishop will not contradict the actions of another bishop. The priest I reported is still the vicar of the same parish he committed his offences in. Worse than all this is the fact that my wife lost her faith because of the way the Church authorities treated me.<br /><br />During the two years I was very poorly, in and out of hospital, not one of my colleagues came to visit me. Not a single priest.<br /><br />My colleagues are cowards, which is forgivable, and hypocrites which is less so. They cry "shame" on posts like this one but they will not risk their careers to help a brother or sister in Christ who needs their help. Then they profess to serve the God who gave his life to save his brothers and sisters.<br /><br />There will be no new life for the Church until the victims of its past receive restitution.Jonathan Haggerhttp://saintlaika.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-62888684775437874312018-03-24T12:31:41.791+00:002018-03-24T12:31:41.791+00:00Wonderful, caring post, Michael. I wish I had enco...Wonderful, caring post, Michael. I wish I had encountered that sort of attitude myself. I was bullied by the church for 20 years. When I moved I encountered mostly indifference, not shame or guilt. One person said that the institutional church had done it, and should put it right. The Bishop does not believe in institutional sin and flew into a rage when I repeated that comment. It is the same institutional sin that ignores bullying and permits sex abuse. Other organisations show it too. The tendency to protect the high caste people and ignore the needs of the victims. So I think we can assume that the church will not change any time soon. There is still a tendency not to do DBS checks, not to believe the lower caste person, to protect the valuable high status person. I wish I believed the Archbishop's protestations, but I do not. If he changes things, I will apologise for being wrong. <br />UKviewer, all the best in the future. But I'm afraid nothing has changed. When people report things, they are not believed, and there it ends.Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-19539778033261292062018-03-24T06:48:09.768+00:002018-03-24T06:48:09.768+00:00It strikes me that we are not observant enough and...It strikes me that we are not observant enough and that we trust people to act in accordance with the norms of their vocation and we are than surprised and shocked to find out that someone we thought that we knew well was responsible for terrible abuse, whether to vulnerable children or vulnerable adults. <br /><br />I can remember my childhood in a Catholic institution, where abuse, mental and physical happened to children, with often brutal punishments for minor indiscretions by the child. at that time, in the 1950's, it seemed that Corporal Punishment was both legal and acceptable conduct in the punishment of children, some of them quite young (under five) and those carrying out that punishment did it to correct our conduct. With several hundred children in that institution, it happened regularly, and years later, some of those who had been punished in that way, were able to disclose their abuse and see those responsible being brought to justice.<br /><br />But how difficult it was to prove that the abuse occurred, in several cases, over 40 years had passed, and it took that length of time for them to have the courage to come forward. I received punishment, but have never felt that it was bad enough to raise, and perhaps I was conditioned to it, and expected it? I had worse in our home situation when we were returned to our family home, from a war damaged father, whose temper terrorised us, until we all left home. He died early, without his actions ever being brought to the attention of those who should have protected us. Our care records were brief and redacted, but high lighted that the Care system knew of our fathers problems, but basically abandoned us, without any long term monitoring.<br /><br />All of this is more than 50 years ago, and I feel able to speak of it openly, but it has taken me years to face what happened to I and my siblings. My elder sibling is still affected today, and lives a solitary life in social care, after some years of receiving mental health support.<br /><br />I have no solutions, but in the church context, we need to be vigilant and report any suspicions that we have immediately, without prevarication or delay. Some might be spurious, but one case avoided is a saving grace.UKViewerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18114944341930758335noreply@blogger.com