tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post6611277849278858974..comments2024-03-28T11:52:35.171+00:00Comments on Woolgathering in North East England: Michael Sadgrove's Blog: A New Report on CathedralsAquiloniushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-67693841731596823062018-02-03T15:50:38.050+00:002018-02-03T15:50:38.050+00:00Actually, you're right that the college may wo...Actually, you're right that the college may work better in theory than practice. But I have seen churches, Parish churches too, where colleagues work well together. And where they don't, I have seen the effect it has on congregations. And I fear we don't agree about leaning more towards Parish churches than Cathedrals. Numbers are growing in most Cathedrals, though not all. You should always "plug" the successes!Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-35226050468981578522018-01-29T22:16:45.370+00:002018-01-29T22:16:45.370+00:00Athena: your comments seem correct to me. If each ...Athena: your comments seem correct to me. If each diocese could afford 250+ stipendiaries then I would say, fine, it is OK for each cathedral to take up 5-7 stipendiary clergy (say, 1 dean, 4 residentiaries and one or two minor canons). However, a number of dioceses now have little more than a hundred stipendiaries (and in many places the number is falling), and even these are barely affordable under the current parish share system. Many benefices have in excess of ten parishes: in parts of the country I have encountered monster benefices of nearly twenty parishes, served by only one or two stipendiaries.<br /><br />I would far rather resident chapters be reduced to one or two clergy than ancient parishes be closed. If the collegiality of chapters is to be lost in the process, then so be it (and I should add that a good many parish churches are a good deal more impressive and important than a number of our cathedrals).<br /><br />I agree that 90 minutes of daily worship may require a little preparation, but in default of any homily, perhaps not that much. The reason why I have argued that there be a canon/prebendary in residence for a couple of weeks at a time is precisely so that the resident dean be given some relief, and also so that the temporary residentiary gets a short break from parish ministry (albeit on busmans' holiday terms). The idea of vesting cathedrals in the state would also relieve cathedral clergy of the administrative burden for which they are not trained (though the Working Group is recommending training), so that they can concentrate on worship and mission.<br /><br />You mention that a reduction in cathedral clergy would have a depressive impact upon congregations. Whether it would or not is moot; in any event, I would far rather see clerical resources concentrated upon parishes: the cathedral is, after all, only the head atop the diocesan body, the health of which is every bit as important. You also mention the value of the collegiate system: it is true that when there is the right combination of personalities, it can work very well - but recent history (and a plethora of earlier instances) has shown how badly the rock pool nature of cathedral life can affect and afflict clergy who are ill-suited to it, and how it can sometimes bring about the worst in people. Frogholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17017833849456366817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-17000857735491606182018-01-29T15:54:37.646+00:002018-01-29T15:54:37.646+00:00Hmm. Fair enough, though you sound a little like s...Hmm. Fair enough, though you sound a little like someone who thinks that weather people only work for five minutes before six o'clock every day! But you can't get tone of voice into a post. Having to be there every day does take it out of you. People are entitled to days off and holidays. And aiming for a schedule all the time wastes your time. It's the same with having to get your children to and from school. It may take only an hour, but actually, you can't get on with anything else for at least half an hour before. I do know Cathedral clergy who seem not to be bothered about the place, unfortunately. I don't think this is the way forward, frankly. It has a depressive effect on the congregations. And I have also seen a system in operation where most of the clergy are present most of the time, even if there is a guest preacher or something. It's good for there to be a collegiate system. Clergy feel supported by their colleagues, and get to know each other well. But where there is a desperate shortage of parish clergy, it seems like a real poke in the eye to any parish clergy who happen to be there. The comments about Readers taking services were aimed generally! Some people do act as if this would be the end of civilization as we know it! Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-72596289079573728432018-01-28T20:48:07.012+00:002018-01-28T20:48:07.012+00:00Having attended daily offices for 8 years at two d...Having attended daily offices for 8 years at two different cathedrals (and having probably attended at least several thousand cathedral services), I think it is perfectly possible to ensure that the daily offices are performed if there are only two resident clergy. Absent Sundays, there are usually three services at most cathedrals: morning prayer (15 minutes), eucharist (30 minutes) and evensong (35-40 minutes). Only one priest is required at each, though it is typical to have two read the lessons at the latter and, as you rightly note, this could be undertaken by a reader. About 90 minutes of daily worship doesn't take up too much of anyone's working day, and its not as though these services require much or, indeed, any preparation by the clergy if they have suitable intercessions to hand (it is different for the musicians, however). Sundays, of course, are different in that almost all cathedrals now have a sung eucharist, frequently with concelebration (unnecessary though it is); that would require one extra priest to be in the vicinity for about 70 or so minutes.<br /><br />So, actually, I think 2 resident clergy is quite sufficient. And, to be honest, at the cathedrals I know well, it is frankly rather rare for resident clergy to attend all offices (and I have encountered some who have attended the bare minimum).<br /><br />You mention clergy helping out in parishes. Why shouldn't they hold parishes (as frequently used to be the case)? There are occasions where the member of the chapter has a living (e.g., St John's Peterborough or St Margaret's Westminster) but, too frequently, chapters do little or nothing for local parishes - whose putative congregations are often lost to cathedral services. Cathedrals can therefore function as spiritual upas trees: destroying Church life for miles around (though not always so, if a local parish church is strongly evangelical, and caters to a market that the cathedral does not accommodate).<br /><br />In the first of my representations I did suggest that chapters could start to include lay readers, pastoral assistant, Church Army officers, etc. This has started to happen on occasion over the last couple of decades. Lay deans and prebends are not unheard of in Church history (though not always in the most edifying circumstances). Frogholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17017833849456366817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-35842225204423586392018-01-28T17:37:05.158+00:002018-01-28T17:37:05.158+00:00I'm afraid I simply hadn't twigged that th...I'm afraid I simply hadn't twigged that this report was different to the one that came out last year. I'm confused! Yes, I agree that there seems no reason to abandon "Dean and Chapter". Lay people on Chapter? Absolutely. And preferably not just nice Mrs. Smith who wouldn't say boo to a Dean! But also not just high status people. Why is it always the retired head of a health trust, or the local landowner? With a token appearance from Mrs.Smith! Shouldn't a Reader who is licenced to a Cathedral be automatically on its governing body as an equal and valued colleague?<br />You're right about accountability. This seems like a big mistake.<br />I think you are using the word "congregation" in a very specific way. Not having read the report, I don't know how the word is used there. But can't it be used simply to mean the people gathered together here and now? The two Cathedrals I know well have very few visitors most weeks, even for Evensong. Most of the, erm, congregation, are regulars. Or else there isn't anyone there at all! There are hot times for tourists, of course, but otherwise I think your experience will not be every Dean's.<br />Listed buildings should be paid for by the state! Either in their entirety, or with a sufficient grant.<br />Thanks for highlighting this. I may read it! Cathedrals are a really important part of the church's ministry. Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-42281309119129702712018-01-28T17:22:25.884+00:002018-01-28T17:22:25.884+00:00My feeling is that you are not understanding that ...My feeling is that you are not understanding that having a very small number of clergy makes it almost impossible to continue with the regular office that distinguishes Cathedrals, even those that did not have a monastery foundation. The issue of using up a lot of priests that are needed in parishes could be addressed firstly by establishing a system of the Cathedral clergy helping out more in parishes. Not ad hoc, but flexible, and variable according to local conditions. And also, shock horror, by using Readers. The Church has lay ministers which it is frequently very reluctant to use, especially in high profile or high status roles. A Reader can perfectly well lead evensong. They do so in many parish churches. The world will not come to an end if they do so also in Cathedrals. And some of us can sing!Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-9045212015557928222018-01-27T19:36:56.834+00:002018-01-27T19:36:56.834+00:00Norwich seems to be alone in still referring to De...Norwich seems to be alone in still referring to Dean and Chapter, whatever the Cathedrals measure might have decreed. And Westminster, of course, which probably never came under that edict anyway being a royal peculiarpeter kettlenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-3827710911867114792018-01-27T12:35:27.588+00:002018-01-27T12:35:27.588+00:00Thank you for this piece. I have made two represen...Thank you for this piece. I have made two representations in response to the consultation. In my view the review was unnecessary: as I see it, the problems at Exeter and Peterborough are insoluble - Exeter was largely stripped of its assets at the Reformation; Peterborough, like all of Henry VIII's new cathedrals, was endowed with a pittance. The same problems stalk the other category C cathedrals detailed in the Howe Report. I see this new review as having been prompted by the bitterness felt within Church House that the Commissioners (with their £8bn+ asset base) should have been forced to subvent Exeter and Peterborough. However, the Commissioners appear to have forgotten (conveniently) that a substantial portion of their asset base has its foundation in the expropriation of capitular assets by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners Act 1840.<br /><br />My view is that all churches established before about 1830 and all Grade I and II* church buildings erected after that date should vest in the state. At a stroke the Church would be relieved of the nightmare of maintaining them (a burden which - we are continually told - militates against mission), and the risk of most ancient churches closing over the next generation would be eliminated (I have worshipped at 4,000 churches and consider that fewer than 5% have viable congregations). In return the Church should be partially dis-endowed: £3.5bn should be transferred from the Commissioners to the state to form a permanent repairing fund. Of course, the Church - being hopelessly myopic and (possibly) foolish - will never agree to this, so we will lose most of our parish churches (as the recent Taylor Review noted, in an aside).<br /><br />How would cathedrals - having been vested in the state - be managed? The Secretary of State (for DCMS) would appoint a governing board of civil servants for each cathedral. The board would be responsible for everything bar liturgy. It would be entitled to co-opt such experts as it pleases. There would still be a chapter, and it would comprise a dean and such canons or prebendaries as may be extant in each diocese. However, only the dean and the canon/prebendary in residence would be resident at any one time, and only those two individuals would be represented on the governing board. Whether the dean should be ex officio chair or not is moot. The chapter would have the discretion to determine the liturgy, and it would be able to exercise a veto over any decision of the board that it might consider invidious to the mission and purpose of the cathedral.<br /><br />There would be no residentiaries absent the dean (existing residentiaries would be allowed to retire, but would not be replaced). Five or so residentiaries made sense when there were hundreds of stipendiaries in each diocese, but in current conditions this can no longer be warranted. I would restore the size of the pre-1840 chapters, and stop creating honorary canons. Instead, the prebendary of X, who would also be rector or vicar or Y, would come in from his or her parish for a week or two to take residence in the single residence/flat retained in each close. This would, to some extent, be a reversion to pre-1840 practice. Thus, the diocese would be brought into the cathedral, and the cathedral would be taken out into the diocese. Canonries in closes could then be let, and the income used for other purposes.<br /><br />The Newman Report also makes no mention of minor canons - a regrettable omission, since in my experience they have often borne much of the work. In fact I would probably dispense with them altogether, or reduce colleges of minor canons or priest vicars to something approaching a fiction. A lay clerk can well intone the V&R, and prayers ought to be led by the dean or canon in residence. Frogholehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17017833849456366817noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-25745137018901257412018-01-25T13:15:09.643+00:002018-01-25T13:15:09.643+00:00This is an insightful and generous response, Micha...This is an insightful and generous response, Michael. My fear is that the recommendations in this report will simply give us bland, technocratic deans. Profits are replacing prophets - and scholars. We will not see the likes of Colin Slee, Wesley Carr and Michael Mayne - nor Michael Sadgrove - in an English deanery for some considerable time. That could make cathedrals less attractive to those who have been contributing to their growth. It will also point up the emerging divisions between the academy and the church (or its hierarchy, at any rate). Christ Church, Oxford, will be our last beacon of independence.David Traynornoreply@blogger.com