tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post4722038415304606375..comments2024-03-28T11:52:35.171+00:00Comments on Woolgathering in North East England: Michael Sadgrove's Blog: Peterborough Cathedral: thoughts on the visitation reportAquiloniushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-63744068871997060782017-01-17T10:05:43.283+00:002017-01-17T10:05:43.283+00:00There is a lot to ponder in this comment, for whic...There is a lot to ponder in this comment, for which thank you. <br />The Association of English Cathedrals (AEC) has produced a corporate governance template and a set of self-evaluation tools which many cathedrals are working through fruitfully. The governance SORP (which I wasn't involved in helping to produce) appears to draw extensively from organisational good practice in all sectors, not least the non-profits sector. So I would expect to see cathedrals increasingly align their practices to those in the SORP, and it should be obvious that Chapters need to make sure that they are compliant, not just once for all but as our understanding of corporate behaviour develops and the SORP is updated. <br />At Durham we agreed to set up an audit committee to scrutinise our financial management, procurement, risk etc. and I am surprised that this is not required under the Measure. <br />Which suggests that the Measure ought to be reviewed, now that it has been in operation for over a decade and a half. It should certainly incorporate the organisational insights you mention. No legislation is so good that it can't be improved. However, I don't agree with the Bishop of P that the Measure is in principle inadequate as a framework. If the Council is doing its job of holding the Chapter's accountability, then there ought to be adequate scrutiny. The Bishop is already positioned under the Measure at the precise point where the Chapter's answerability is called in as I argue in the blog. <br />However, as you imply, no system is better than the people who populate it and set the culture. Making the right appointments to both Chapter and Council is critical. As far as the Council is concerned, the Bishop makes a fair point in the Charge about the need to make sure there is financial and other necessary technical expertise present on it as the scrutiny body. But that's precisely where his Council Chair, and his own involvement as attender, need to come in! The Chapter, for the sake of its own healthy functioning, should do all it can to get competent people on to its Council. But it isn't all down to the Chapter on its own, still less the Dean. This is where the Visitation Charge seems to me to be less joined-up than it should be. The Bishop is structurally already in a more powerful position in his Cathedral than perhaps he realises. <br />I'd add that given the risks cathedrals face as high-profile churches, "failures", happen on a highly public and visible stage. Never were proper induction and training for members of governing bodies more needed than now. The AEC together with Bishops, Deans and the National Church Institutions are putting a lot of energy and funding into this which is both necessary and welcome.Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-32826978574752313692017-01-17T09:43:07.780+00:002017-01-17T09:43:07.780+00:00There is a lot I don't know about Peterborough...There is a lot I don't know about Peterborough though since writing the blog I have pieced together a few aspects of the story. If anything, I am more worried now than I was when I wrote.<br />a)I don't know what the Chapter's current position is, though it is a key question because the Chapter is the body legally responsible for the Cathedral's day to day life. However, the Bishop has acknowledged to the BBC that the Dean's resignation was a condition (among others?) of Church Commissioners' funding support. I was astonished to hear this. The effect of this is to isolate the Dean from the Chapter as if the accountability was not shared corporately. We all know that it is under the Measure. <br />(b) I can't say what the Bishop knew or didn't know about the Cathedral's finances, either as an attender at Council whose role it is to scrutinise the annual budget and accounts, or via his domestic chaplain (or via the Dean himself, or the Chair of Council who is the Bishop's appointee). <br />(c)Neither the Church Commissioners nor the Bishop, even as Visitor, can simply *insist* on the resignation of a Dean without a proper process, whether s/he is a free-holder or holds office under Common Tenure (in the case of Charles Taylor, the former). The only way in which this could be achieved legally is through a competency or disciplinary procedure. But if I had been in the Dean's position, I would have made the same decision as he did, if I thought that by doing so, I was saving the Cathedral from financial disaster and ensuring that employees continued to be paid. Even if it felt like a gun held at my head.<br />It's hard not to draw the conclusion that this is a cruel and unusual way of dealing a senior colleague. Let's remember that the Dean is the Senior Priest of the Diocese and the Bishop's colleague on his staff, as well as holding ex officio roles on the Bishop's Council and Diocesan Synod. Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-82975618118186482842017-01-16T20:55:21.273+00:002017-01-16T20:55:21.273+00:00Being formerly "of" Peterborough and now...Being formerly "of" Peterborough and now "of" Durham I'll generally avoid specifics. It's interesting your view of risk, accountability, scrutiny, etc broadly aligns with good corporate governance for companies. This is no surprise - the UK Corporate Governance code is effectively subsumed into plenty of non-company guidance (Charity SORP, HEFCE's regulation of HE and FE, NHS governance guidance, etc) so it ought to work for the Church as a body corporate as well. <br /><br />Where the corporate world has struggled is ensuring a good framework works in practice. Excessively powerful executives can railroad decisions (Tesco?); non-execs may be lacking skills / expertise / time / willingness to challenge a risky strategy (Northern Rock?); both the Executive and NEDs may fall into group-think - "no-one else is challenging this, and if I challlenge they'd think I don't get it" (any housing bubble?). Post Enron and Lehmans the Corporate Governance Code has made some improvements - I wonder whether the Cathedrals Measure has kept pace since 1999? - but the key is still getting the right people to give the right challenge and/or support.<br /><br />It remains easy to unwittingly / unconsciously promote certain behaviours or types of people - people who fit in don't necessarily bring diversity, whilst simple things like the timing of meetings can exclude the young, the old, those out at work, those without transport, etc. <br /><br />Bringing all that together (and I'll be clear I have no agenda on this): (1) could the governance structures and guidance be improved; and (2), more pertinently is enough thought given to how the right people and culture are put in place to challenge and support? SJNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14307264020387700825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-55703769187995130152017-01-16T14:17:48.756+00:002017-01-16T14:17:48.756+00:00Apologies for a late contribution to this blog, bu...Apologies for a late contribution to this blog, but it was only after hearing you on Radio 4 yesterday that I took a more detailed interest. So, am I right in thinking (a) that the Chapter as a corporate body has avoided collective responsibility for this - and been allowed to avoid it by scapegoating the Dean; (b) that the Bishop of Peterborough is still denying he knew anything even though it is now patently obvious he must have seen the accounts and, more significantly, because his own domestic chaplain is a residentiary canon, he would have kept him fully briefed; (c) that the Church Commissioners have the power to hire and fire a priest irrespective of the Clergy Discipline Measure; that the Bishop never attended any meetings of the Cathedral Council; and that he is ducking the question of whether he was told by the Commissioners that a bail-out was conditional upon Charles Taylor going? If so, this is not the only manifestation of a Putin-style dictatorship at the highest levels. Interesting hint by James Richards, by the way, which has got me wondering (especially in relation to the Commissioners) as to whether Charles Taylor and Graeme Knowles have been comparing notes to their mutual benefit?Precentor Petenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-67429861149461503632017-01-14T16:21:14.304+00:002017-01-14T16:21:14.304+00:00Thanks for comments. It's clear there is a lot...Thanks for comments. It's clear there is a lot of disquiet about what has happened in Peterborough and why the Dean has felt it necessary to resign. BBC Radio 4's Sunday Programme is featuring this story tomorrow morning from 0700. I have recorded an interview. The Church Times has also carried it: this blog is quoted. Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-71471969505902453792017-01-13T16:04:38.562+00:002017-01-13T16:04:38.562+00:00David Mitchell's comment, and your very valid ...David Mitchell's comment, and your very valid point about Chapter's collective responsibility negating the need for the scapegoating of Charles Taylor, highlights (a) that 'someone' was exceeding their authority - again - and interfering in the internal affairs of a diocese other than his own; and (b) that there is no longer room for failure or incompetence in Christian ministry - especially where money is concerned. There was nothing dishonest about Charles Taylor's leadership of Peterborough Cathedral. Quite the opposite. He was too honest - and too honest in not being 'On Message' as far as the current orthodoxy is concerned. It is very shabby indeed and I believe the Commissioners have some searing questions to answer.James Richardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-80472869347096869972017-01-11T11:32:06.842+00:002017-01-11T11:32:06.842+00:00As a current lay member of Chapter your article is...As a current lay member of Chapter your article is most eloquently written and I'm sure will help to crystallise the thoughts of many Chapter members left reeling by the heavy handed suggestions made by the Bishop of Peterborough. <br />Thank you for pointing out that the Bishop appoints members to the Cathedral Council to whom Chapter are accountable. Maybe more thought needs to be given by the Bishop in ensuring these are wise appointments.<br /><br />Cathedral congregations are on the rise, unlike church congregations. Indeed, several of our events this year were oversubscribed by many thousands. There are currently enormous challenges facing churches throughout the country, surely this is where the full focus of our bishops is needed. Bedford Minorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13729134294051680546noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-74167067493038056922017-01-10T15:38:13.318+00:002017-01-10T15:38:13.318+00:00I don't know the details of what has happened ...I don't know the details of what has happened at P'boro but what you suggest is worrying to say the least. The responsible body is the Chapter collectively, not the Dean individually, and if there are questions to address, they are as much for the Chapter as the Dean. I can't comment on the Bishop's criticism of decision-making processes in the Cathedral, but *if* the Chapter is working as it should (the key question, I know), then its collective responsibility ought to have protected the Dean from being singled out for personal criticism.Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-23917330310982764212017-01-10T11:14:58.162+00:002017-01-10T11:14:58.162+00:00I agree. Charles Taylor is an excellent priest who...I agree. Charles Taylor is an excellent priest who has been treated shabbily and in a profoundly un-Christian way. Surely, the Chair of the Cathedral Council carries equal responsibility in this situation. What troubles me more is that I have it on excellent authority that the Bishop of Peterborough went to the Church Commissioners, saying the financial crisis was his problem, and asked for £5m. He was told he could have it, but the Commissioners wanted the 'Dean's head on a plate.' That is disturbing in itself. But I cannot imagine it wasn't sanctioned from the very top. David Mitchellnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-87339964596387276962017-01-10T11:01:33.855+00:002017-01-10T11:01:33.855+00:00Yeah. But he wouldn't have the power to give a...Yeah. But he wouldn't have the power to give any orders. Every Bishop his Lord in (his) own Diocese. It's hideously difficult to get rid of any erring cleric. And the bad ones know it, so they don't care.Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-19283598981174672332017-01-10T10:59:16.123+00:002017-01-10T10:59:16.123+00:00I need to think about this. I have some experience...I need to think about this. I have some experience, limited, of both the running of Dioceses, and Cathedral life. I have known of both Dioceses and Cathedrals that were left effectively bust. The Cathedral Council I know of wields no power, and the Bishop does not attend. I know of another Cathedral where no-one would be aware that a Cathedral Council existed! And then there's the AGM. They're not compulsory, so some Cathedrals don't have them. To my mind, one big question is "where does the congregation fit in?" And despite the measure, I do know of a Cathedral where the relationship between the Dean and the Bishop who appointed them is not good. And as the poster above pointed out, what happens when the Bishop changes? As to the matter of finances, good stewardship is a Christian duty, but why is any "scandal" always either sex or money? What about canons who don't care and don't come to services? What about bullying? I know of a Dean who used to leave their children to be babysat by members of staff!!! A complete inability to distinguish between employee and servant. But, it's a big subject. I will think more about this. Thank you.Athenahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08497065436976563532noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-87578771170024106282017-01-10T10:45:31.855+00:002017-01-10T10:45:31.855+00:00Doesn't the Archbishop have the right to visit...Doesn't the Archbishop have the right to visit a diocese - indeed, didn't ++Rowan subject Chichister to an Archiepiscopal visitation recently?Father Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14093619148896080890noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-2763391402735727542017-01-10T09:44:34.663+00:002017-01-10T09:44:34.663+00:00Yes. Dioceses get into difficulties too, but Bisho...Yes. Dioceses get into difficulties too, but Bishops and Bishops' Councils aren't formally "visited" and publicly criticised in the way Deans, Chapters and Cathedrals are. But they too are national church institutions, like Cathedrals. Quis visitabit visitantes?Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-38092496240104006152017-01-09T21:20:52.497+00:002017-01-09T21:20:52.497+00:00Thank you, Michael. As someone ministering in a Ca...Thank you, Michael. As someone ministering in a Cathedral, and recently appointed to an audit committee, I can confirm that management of risk and good governance are high on the agenda: much more so indeed than I have found in other places. As you say, the structures are in place, and it is for interested parties to pay attention to them. What I have found puzzling is how Cathedrals can be used as a good news story (in some ways in an exaggerated way), whilst at the same time a mood of panic is being stirred up. Puzzling also is the way that Cathedrals and Deans can be held to account in a very public way, which bring such exposure to individuals, with little recourse to appeal. Why single out Cathedrals to this sort of treatment?Kevin Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09022164581463854550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-38973041491370972062017-01-09T17:24:19.068+00:002017-01-09T17:24:19.068+00:00This is a great article. Although I am not working...This is a great article. Although I am not working on Cathedrals but only focusing on the issue of a business model for the churches, this is extremely interesting. It seems the transformation runs deeply that I thought, at a different level.<br /> Sandra Almeidahttps://uk.linkedin.com/in/sandra-oliveira-60b20911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-62793904046982406932017-01-09T15:47:53.162+00:002017-01-09T15:47:53.162+00:00The Peterborough charge stipulates that the manage...The Peterborough charge stipulates that the management of risk should be a priority. In my view, an audit committee is the right body to do this, and I would expect to see the establishment of audit committees as an outcome of the revision of the Cathedrals Measure. Only a few cathedrals currently have them. The AC should be chaired by a non-member of Chapter (perhaps a Council member because it would affirm the oversight function of the body that holds the Chapter's accountability and ought to ensure that there is an effective internal critique of its performance. The Chapter needs to be represented on it of course, as does the Cathedral's finance department. Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-5790988749391501772017-01-09T15:23:26.271+00:002017-01-09T15:23:26.271+00:00As a member of a cathedral congregation, as well a...As a member of a cathedral congregation, as well as having a professional interest in the governance of charities, this interested me too. The 1999 Measure did a lot to help improve matters, although the different histories (and current differences) mean that the relative balance of the Council and Chapter in each place differs. One thing that the Association of English Cathedrals and/or the Cathedrals Administration and Finance Association might want to think about is whether guidance on audit and risk committees for cathedrals might be welcome - as to whether this role could be fulfilled from within the ranks of Chapter or whether additional expertise might be welcome. Without being able to see Peterborough's annual report (which I couldn't find on their website), it's hard to comment. But past challenges on cathedral financing - Mappa Mundi? - suggest that monitoring of risk may be something that people could be better at.Richard Gillinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14940101329972346807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-25008946001072136262017-01-09T13:31:17.614+00:002017-01-09T13:31:17.614+00:00Thank you. I've added a paragraph explaining t...Thank you. I've added a paragraph explaining this important point.Aquiloniushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15098649175728796819noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6861480576960760833.post-37025043052319478552017-01-09T13:15:24.952+00:002017-01-09T13:15:24.952+00:00Thank you for clarifying, and enlarging on, the Pe...Thank you for clarifying, and enlarging on, the Peterborough Visitation.<br />It is very helpful to see where the 'hinges' haven't worked, and be reminded of the balance obtained when they do.<br />Sensibly avoiding any thing specifically personal, it would still be interesting to know how a Dean is appointed whose rapport with a Bishop is possible - especially where a change of Bishop will affect that balance.Benedictus_in_Ardenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823317429922265671noreply@blogger.com